Wednesday, August 10, 2005

Homosexuality

What's obvious is that Islam regards homosexuality as a great sin, I would say greater than extra-marital sex. What's not obvious to me is how Islam advocates the treatment of homosexuals.

There is a saying in Islam, which I'm not sure how true it is, that God's throne shakes everytime a homosexual act happens. The most clear story however is the story of prophet Lut and his people. Amazing to me that he wanted to save his male visitors by offering his gay villagers to sleep with his daughters instead. Would this mean that homosexuality is worse than extra-marital hetero sex? However, we see the punishment for extra-marital sex specified in the Quran, but not so for homosexuality --other than God's damning.

I happen to agree that homosexuality is not normal. Our parents, Adam and Eve were male and female, and that is when the norm for human sex has been established. And isn't it obvious that the only way for humans to reproduce is through male and female sexual intercourse, the normal way of having sex. I understand however that there could be same-sex attraction, but I still don't find it normal. I'd attribute that to minor biological imbalances, to how gays are raised as children, and to the environment that nourishes such activities as grownups. Those factors do not mean that homosexuality should be accepted however.

From my personal observations in North America, I find that the strongest lobbying group are the Jews, and the second strongest group are homosexuals (they're not related, don't get me wrong). How homosexuals have managed to establish themselves as a third gender in Western societies, and integrate their culture is very interesting. It seems that every TV show must have a homosexual character now, and they must be the sweetest character in the show!

I've seen them control the Student Union of a university, and censoring the Muslim Student Association's publication about Islam's view of homosexuality, demanding a public apology in the university's newspaper. They didn't back down until they received a formal letter from a lawyer informing them that while they have the right to act as they please, others have the right to free speech.

I've grown indifferent to homosexuals really. Yes, it is a great taboo in Islamic countries, but we all seem to have a hinch on homosexuality in us! People from the same sex in Arab countries already hug, kiss and hold hands (yeah, we're just too emotional they say). When an Arab goes to a Western country, fellow Arabs who reside in that country will warn the new comer not to kiss or hug, otherwise people will think they're gays. I'd say go for it, this way you might get more rights being thought of as a homosexual minority.

Seeing guys kissing and hugging and women doing the same is actually normal here. Seeing the same abroad means they're homosexuals, but it has become very normal too now. After a few months of living two blocks away from a street that is known to be "gay friendly", it became normal for me to see two "guys" mouth-kissing in the street, or to see four male legs entangled on the beach. The Pride Parade passing right below my house was still abit weird though. You really don't have to bring your bedrooms to the streets with all that black leather stuff and other weird accessories to prove you are normal! and that you are "proud to be gay".

I really am indifferent to them. Why should I care. They want to have same-sex sex, sure. Want to have gay bars, sure. Want to get married even, sure. But its too far when they ask to adopt children. If they can't make their own kids, then they shouldn't get any. Why should perfectly normal kids be raised in a "family" that will for sure turn them into homosexual kids?! Its not just a matter of having those kids accept homosexuality as normal behavior --which is being promoted everywhere all the time now anyway--, but its that those kids are bound to grow up as homosexuals themselves. And I'm sorry, that shouldn't be acceptable by any standard. Screw your lives as you wish, but don't screw with others'.

Arab and Islamic countries are isolated for now from having to accept homosexuality and integrate it in our culture. Yes, it exists, but its not acceptable and its a big taboo, and its fine this way. North Western gay winds are blowing hard this direction however.

37 comments:

zoss said...

just two (ok, three) quick comments, (not to agree or dis):
one, I heard a number of people advocating that prophet "Lut" offered his daughters in marriage to save his guests.

two, about gays raising kids, you might be interested to listen to Episode 293 of "This American Life"

three, there are other means of reproduction than what you cite -- e.g., artifical insemination (and cloning?).

Mohamed said...

Zoss, I was talking about the natural way of reproduction --talking of normal.

Did you get the theme of that audio piece you link to, "breaking the traditional position on gender"! So its not about sex, its about love and committment; and so that makes it so much innocent and sweet, doesn't it! Should I marry my dog then?!

The kid says; "but I wanna be gay, like you and dad! Most kids grow up to be straight, its not a choice." Being an inborn trait is what they advocate, and hence little kids will grow to be straight or gay regardless of who their parents are. Sorry, couldn't really finish listening to that propaganda. I've heard this stuff before.

Alina said...

Mo, what we think of as normal often changes. Take Roman and Greek culture for example - those guys had nothing against homosexuality and there are stories about this great antient army containing homosexual couples only. Now, what I know is it cannot be treated, no one can be cured of homosexuality. Maybe it is inborn, but that's beside the point.
I accept it as something that exists and that I have no right to judge. BTW, this is the part I actually appreciate most in Christian beliefs - never judging, that's God's prerogative only. I would feel uncomfortable seing two men or two women kissing in front of me because it really doesn't happen around here that much (and those participating in the domestic Gay Pride Parade have been beaten), but if I saw it every day, it wouldn't bother me anymore.
About adopting kids...I don't know! I know normal people that screwed up their children's lives a lot more than any homosexual behavior would have...Still, I tend to believe being brought up with a father and a mother (as long as they are good parents and can live under the same roof without causing a tragedy) is the best way.

Mohamed said...

Kayla, I don't know that it can be treated either, and I don't know how homosexuals maybe handled, but the more "rights" they get, the more rights they ask for.

Alina said...

True of us all at times!

Mohamed said...

Kayla, I don't know that it can be treated either, and I don't know how homosexuals maybe handled, but the more rights they get, the more rights they ask for. So I think we should draw the line before adopting kids.

Alina said...

I have to admit I do agree on that.

Jane said...

I have to totally disagree with you on this one. Homosexuality IS normal and natural. It has existed at least since ancient Greece and is found throughout the animal kingdom. I myself am not threatened by believing that consenting adults can love each other and want to spend their lives together. No one knows why two people fall in love and it's really nobody else's business. If you research, you'll find that gay parents are usually quite educated and very financially stable. Their children turn out normally. The only real issue their children face is biogtry of others. Gay people aren't asking for special rights--they just want the same rights as every other human being. The only reason to deny them these rights is because you think they are inferior. I don't happen to think that.

Jane said...

And one more thing...Research has shown that gay parents are no more likely to have gay children than heterosexual parents.

Mohamed said...

Jane, I don't think they are inferior. I just think that the sexual act they do is inferior, and having it go back in history doesn't mean its normal. The first murder in human history didn't make murder normal (I'm not comparing murder to homosexuality, just an example).

I did say I'm indifferent however, as long as they don't affect others' lives, and adopting kids (which is obviously not the normal way of having kids) does affect the lives of others. Sure, kids will turn out straight ('cause its normal), but do they have higher probability of being otherwise because they were raised by gay parents?

Jane said...

I think adoption is normal and natural and a wonderful thing. I hope to adopt a child some day. Again let me state that broad, long-term studies have shown that gay parents are no more likely to have gay children than heterosexual parents. Their kids are just as healthy, happy, and well-adjusted. Gay parents cannot have unintended children, so they must know how much their parents truly wanted them. I also know that being gay is not a choice. It is how some people are born, just as some people are born with black hair or blue eyes. No one would choose to be part of a group that is so discriminated against, so reviled by others. They are a part of the wonderous creation of the universe and I believe they are loved just as much by the one who created us all. What a boring world it would be if we were all alike.

Jane said...

Just to be clear--whether gay parents have children through adoption or artificial insemination, they are no more likely to raise gay children than straight parents are. Homosexuality is not a disease one can catch and as far as geneticists know at this time, it is not hereditary.

Mohamed said...

Thanks for presenting the other point of view Jane.

Jane said...

I'm glad that your mind is open enough to see another viewpoint. All I can say from personal experience is that I've met and know at least 100 homosexuals and only two have had a gay parent. That says something to me.

Mohamed said...

I've met a number of homosexuals myself, and none of them had gay parents. Mostly because gay parents can't have kids :)

zoss said...

Mohamed; artificial insemination is normal and natural, despite its (historical) name.

jane; "Homosexuality IS normal and natural. .. is found throughout the animal kingdom."
please, not this argument. There is a lot of behavior that can be found in the animal kingdom that I wouldn't call an acceptable behavior of a human being.

Jane said...

I certainly agree that there are many behaviors found in the animal kingdom that are socially and ethically unacceptable in human society. However no matter how highly we think of ourselves or how different we believe ourselves to be, we humans are just another animal species on planet earth. Only the tiniest variation of DNA separates us from chimps. It is scientific fact. I am sorry if my analogy was offensive in any way.

Jane said...

I'd like to say just a bit more before I shut up and stop taking up space here on Mohamed's blog. These are my personal opinions based on the studies and research that I have read. But also I cannot bring myself to believe that a relationship between able-minded, consenting adults in which no one is abused or mistreated is wrong. There are enough divisions between people in the world...religion, race, politics...we don't need another. Thanks for letting me air my thoughts on this matter, Mohamed, even though you may not agree with them.

Charukesi said...

Hi! This is my first time here - it is interesting what you say about two people of the same gender being seen together and the way they are perceived - where I am, India - it is perfectly "normal" - and socially acceptable for two men or women to walk together, even holding hands or even live together in the same place - people do not automatically classify them as gay. on the other hand, it is taboo for two people of opposite genders to be seen together in public holding hands or kissing - if not actualy taboo, it is frowned upon...

and then the politics of being gay in the west - I remember seeing a French movie (trabslated) clale dthe closet - where this guy is forced to pretend he is gay just to save his job - the company couldn't sack him coz that would be politically incorrect!

Charu
http://indsight.org/blog

roora said...

hi , i have few comments here ,
first for mohamed, regarding prophet Lut story , i guess the verses didnt state that the man can have one of his daughters instead (in an adultery way) , i guess it was gona be in the marriage form, i am not sure bardo yet , i didnt read the interpretation , but that what would come to my mind that a prohet will never allow for adultery bec it seems to be of lower sin in compare to other sins.

talking about there is no exact punishment for homosexuality like the adultery , i dont know , but the sura that states how God punished this village bec they were all like that , can reveal how sinful it is.

for jane, saying that people dont choose to be like that , they are born like that.

well i used to think in the past how people will be punished for something they have no hand in it. but again , i belive that God will not punish for something , if it is not in our choice and at our hand. God is Fair to judge us on what we can do and no what we dont have hand in it like what you said about having brown eyes. maybe if they felt like that , they should make it away from their minds and dont give the devil a chance to play with their minds, in what is wrong with , and to behave as a normal human being and as God created us. so my point it in in our hand or God would of not punish for such an act

there are some people who actually do really weired stuff , i dont really want to go into that, but maybe that was done for change , i dont know.

Raising children , well when these children are raised up in a family that thesy see that such values are normal , and it is okay , do you think they will tend to forbid these acts and belive that they are wrong and it is a sin.

last , regaring that it is normal bec it is common from a very long time, same answer like mohamed, having people killed since ages doesnt make it normal or not a sin , it doesnt make it normal

God saves us from all these corrupted things

Jane said...

Roora, I will do my best to respond to your questions by simply stating my personal beliefs. I do not believe that God forbids or finds homosexuality sinful or wrong. I know many disagree with me but it is what I believe. At night I look out into the vastness of the universe and see that God is so much bigger and more wonderous than we can possibly imagine. Plants, animals, galaxies, atoms, and etc are so complex, so intricate...what wisdom must God have. We are only human animals and will most likely never have the capacity to comprehend such greatness. I don't believe God punishes us for anything. God loves us and simply wants the best for us. We are given free will and sometimes, yes, it is used to hurt others. I do not see how homosexuality harms heterosexuals. I am not hurt by the love people have between each other. I believe God made us to be special, unique individuals and He doesn't make mistakes. I believe it is part of our work here on earth to learn to be more understanding, compassionate, and tolerant of one another. Why is it so difficult to accept that we are not all the same? How does it harm you if two men or two women have love for one another and share their lives? For me, I am in awe to see all of the variation of creation. The God I believe in is not severe, not angry, not vengeful. God to me is all loving, all forgiving, and full of hope for His children. And we are all His children. In the end, I do not believe that it is God who will judge us, but it is we who must judge ourselves and our own behavior. This is my thinking. I know my answer will most likely not sway anyone's opinion, just as my opinion is unlikely to be changed. I respect that you have a different view on this but I simply cannot agree.

roora said...

jane, i want to clear something before i answer, that i am not offensive towards you .
ok my beliefs are stemming out of my doctrine "islam" that forbids adultery and homosexuality.

i stood at this sentence you wrote "I don't believe God punishes us for anything." , of course God is merciful more than we can ever imagine and loves us so much , but ofcourse jane, God will judge us , ok what is the difference between some one who does good deeds and another who makes bad deeds. would it be fair that they are both rewarded the same way. we are not left by our own in this world to act like however we want , there are regulations and rules controlling and organizing our behaviour . Actually It is God's mercy that we will be judged so that each would be aware of his actions and those who sticked to the right path would have their reward at the end of the day.

maybe homosexuals wont harm hetrosexuals, but arent there acts that are wong bec it is unethical act and away from any regulations and normal behaviors. for example like commiting suicide , it may nit hurt others but it is wrong m can we say it is a right behaiour. we are not saying whether this will hurt others, or not , we are discussing if this is a wrong behaviour or not regardless if it will hurt someone or not.

Last , what is wrong in being different , there is ni problem in being different , no 2 people are alike jane even sisters brought at same house will be different, but there are regulations that we should not exceed and go beyond , these regulations that control our behavipour and parrallel to the nature that God created us for . the normal relationship.

Jane said...

Roora,
Your words are not offensive in the least. I understand that you are coming from a very different perspective and I don’t have issue with others who respectfully disagree with my opinions and beliefs.
I don’t believe that God punishes us or will punish us for anything and that we will have to judge ourselves. I know that I am my own harshest critic and am willing to bet that it is the same for most others. I do not do bad deeds because I am afraid of being punished if I do; I do not do them because I know in my heart they are wrong. I do not do good deeds, such as help others, in hopes of a reward in this life or the next; I help because I would want to be helped if I was in need. I try my hardest not to do anything to anyone that I would not want done to myself. It is as simple as that. That is what controls my behavior, my conscience and empathy for others. Yes I make often mistakes and sometimes I do things or say things that hurt others, but I am human and have to accept that as part of life. I can only try to learn from my mistakes and not repeat them.
As far as what is normal, well normal is a relative term. Where I live it is perfectly normal for women to wear pants, have careers, and drive cars while in other parts of the world it is not. For Muslims it is normal to pray five times a day, while for most Christians and Jews (at least the ones I know) it is not. My best friend has 13 brothers and sisters. I have only two. Which is normal? Who decides what is normal? Besides, the gay people I know do have “normal” relationships. They have jobs, come home, talk about their day, pay bills, eat dinner together….it’s not nearly as kinky or exciting as one might imagine. In fact, it’s not really all that different than heterosexuals at all. I have learned over the first thirty years of my life that what is normal to me may not be normal to others.
I thank you giving me another standpoint on this issue and a good discussion. It is good that we can share our differing beliefs and thoughts in such a civilized manner. I enjoyed it.

Gilgamish said...

how is being homosexual wrong? I would like a person to answer this question. if a person likes and is attracted to another person from his/her same gender, then what's the big deal in that, it wont affect reproducation, hell, there are many kids that need nurturing parents.
and i think it is very natural, in the matter of fact, i dont believe that people are 100% homosexual or hetrosexual, women do think that some women are pretty for example, probably its rated as 1 out of ten in terms of my self-drawn homosexual scale. probably 5 is bi-sexual, and so on...

i think in the end, people are free to choose their lifestyle, the problem lies within the countries that control people's lifestyle such as iran giving capital punishment to people who happen to be gay.

roora said...

ok jane , you may be self judding yor self in every little thing by your nature but there are things that you will basically not going to do unless if yo uare really afraid from God, like for example talking oon the back of someone badly , or extending the rightful relation between a man and a woman , if they are both attracted to each other. one thing that control them and their instict is that they are afraid from God's punishment to them , even if they wont hurt others . they will wait till they get married. this is for example.

being judged gives a motive for how you should behave , for example , sometime i join in doing some good deeds, but what can make me bear the tiredness while doing these good deeds , that i am looking for God's reward.

Helping out someone (who is the same one who hurted you ) just bec you know how this will be rewarded by God

talking about myself if i was more afraid from God's judgement more than that , i would of been happier and doing better deeds with a peaceful heart.

Returining to what is normal , it is normal having a marital relationship between a man and a woman like prophet Adam and Eve, and to have generations afterwards and to share life together.

Having relations from the same gender could be approved in terms of friendships , sisters, brothers, prents to childeren , where they share mutual understanding and mutual respect.

but the marital relation between the same gender is different. It should not be consdiered an acceptable option ,

ok you said it is not in their choice , ok so why would some people choose to change when they enter jails and they choose to change themselves then.

to explain more, there are rules that are regulating our behaviours , we are not animals moving around our desires and instincts, there are regulations that regulate our behaviours.

funny enough is there something like that in animals by the way?

gilgamish and jane , one last comment , we are saying that this not normal , and you aresaying why . and would that huurt anyone, ? ok why the it is very worng that a sister would have an afair with her brother or her dad, isnt that wrong and not normal and it should not be an option , and the basics and priniciples should be stated clearly in our minds that this is not a possible relation.

arent we all against that , although those who do incest can just go and defend themselves and say what is worng in that , and we are attracted to each other and we are not hurting anyone.

no we are not left by our own ,, we are not animals(sorry no offense), we have regulations that control our beaviours.

sorry to say it , having defenders in such topics make it more acceptable to people by time and consider it as an acceptable option , and it is not.

if we continued like that , one day we may hear a debate of people saying why not there is a relation between a brother and sister

i think those who are truly sticking to religoun , will not be like that

Mohamed said...

Zoss and Roora, actually all the tafseers explain the aya that prophet Lut indeed offered the girls in marriage. Weird to wake up and make up my own explanation for the aya out of ignorance, isn't it?! I hope this doesn't constitute blasphamy!! I love prophet Lut.

Roora, alot of sins we know God orders us to avoid, but should there be a law against it? I'm saying that I don't know of a punishment or a certain treatment for homosexuals in Islam, is there? What God will do to them is something, and how humans should treat them is something else. Like if I don't pray for example, I'll be damned, but should you treat me differently or should other humans punish me?

Jane, regarding research of kids adopted by gay couples, I'd be very skeptical reading such research. I haven't read them, but here are some questions I'd have in mind; how many gay couples were studied? for how long did they have their adopted kids? did they study the willingness of the raised kids to be involved in a homosexual act, even though they might not be homosexuals? who conducted the study, and how was it financed?

From the perspective of right and wrong, that is what most Muslims rely on. The Creator's definition of right and wrong as relayed to us. For example in Islam, God asks us not to have anal sex. Research might prove that there's nothing wrong with that, and that its perfectly normal (though there are studies that says that it is dangerous, and causes diseases, but if you're gonna do it, use lots of lubrication!). So, if its done between two consenting adults should it be fine? Well, fine by me, but God tells me that He doesn't want it because our bodies are not ours, but His, and that we don't own our lives, but He does.

The argument for homosexuality against the above example ofcourse would be that homosexuals don't make a choice to have this type of sex, its how they are. Same-sex couples loving each other is how they are. Put me alone in an island with a good guy, and I'll probably fall in love with him!

The definition of normalcy in a couple's relationship in marriage is very simple to me. A man and a woman can have sex and reproduce. A man and a man can't, a woman and a woman can't. Imagine if all the human species turns gay, that would be the end of it, wouldn't it. Gay wouldn't mean happy then, would it :) Each gender would still have to borrow ovas and sperms from the other gender to reproduce. I wouldn't call that normal.

So, should we look at homosexuality as a handicap then? I would think that wouldn't be acceptable either, eh.

Jane said...

Mohamed,
You ask about the research on children of gay parents and state your concern over the well-being of these children. Here are links to article citing such studies, the majority of which show that there are no meaningful differences between children raised by heterosexual and homosexual parents. I’ve also include links to articles in which children of gay parents were quoted and interviewed.
http://www.hrc.org/Template.cfm?Section=Home&CONTENTID=17963&TEMPLATE=/ContentManagement/ContentDisplay.cfm
http://www.apa.org/pi/parent.html
http://www.insightmag.com/main.cfm?include=detail&storyid=225483
http://www.aclu.org/GetEqual/par/Tools.htm
http://www.religioustolerance.org/hom_pare2.htm
http://www.boston.com/news/local/connecticut/articles/2004/04/15/children_of_gay_parents_say_they_do_just_fine/
http://www.jmu.edu/safezone/news_notes/stability.htm
http://www.drspock.com/article/0,1510,4028,00.html
Yes, Mohamed, there are a few studies that claim children of gay parents are affected by their parents’ sexual orientation, but these have overwhelmingly been dismissed by those in the serious scientific community as being flawed or skewed due to religious and/or political motives. I hope that you will look at these links and give them serious consideration. I do believe more research needs to be done, however, I do not think there is reason to worry for these children.
Roora,
I understand that your beliefs are based in your Muslim faith. I am curious though, as I am uneducated in the Koran, and I respectfully ask what does it specifically state regarding homosexuality? What passages can you cite to me as reference? I can see that you are just as steadfast in your belief that homosexuality is wrong as I am in believing it is ok. Although it may upset some, I will continue to defend the human rights of others to live their lives, to have love, and to not pretend to be something other than who they are. It almost sounds to me that you are saying if they remain celibate or if they engage in heterosexual relationships that they would be acceptable. Even if they do these things it does not change the core of who they are. They will still be gay. I could dress as a man, cut my hair short, and take a man’s name but it does not make me a man. I will never be able to convince myself that God would create love between able-minded adults and then condemn it as evil. I do not believe God is capable of such cruelty.
It saddens me that some will do good, for reasons based in any way in hopes of a reward, rather than because it is the right thing to do or because they truly want to do good. I am also disheartened that all that will keep some from being hurtful or harmful to others is fear of punishment from a vengeful God, rather than because it is just wrong.
It seems this subject is one we all have very definite ideas on, although we are on opposing ends of this debate. Although I was raised a Christian, I no longer associate with that, or any other faith. My church told me to “Do unto others as you would have done to you” and “Let he who is without sin cast the first stone” yet I saw within the faith that precious few actually lived these doctrines. I could no longer put my heart in such organizations and chose to find my own way on the spiritual path, to think and decide for myself what I believe. I know I am a minority in the world, being one who does not adhere to organized religion, but I have no regrets. If I am wrong then I am prepared to face whatever may come. My belief in God and in His love has grown stronger, not weaker because of my choice.

Mohamed said...

You know what I came out reading those links? That children of gay parents are better off than children of straight parents!

The HRC report says:
Most objections to same-sex marriage seem to be rooted in religious faith or prejudice and defy proof or disproof. However, opponents of same-sex marriage do invoke one line of reasoning that can be confirmed or refuted by evidence.

I would agree to some extent, and that it is based on common-sense logic. You know, that same-sex sex doesn't reproduce. In Islam, as far as I know, it is not allowed to adopt children in the first place, for straight couples. As it stands, this is probably one of the main areas were Science and Religion clash --for now, until science proves otherwise (or until we understand religion differently).

But the HRC report also says:
To be sure, gay-parenting studies to date are limited, and some scholars criticize them because their samples are too small or because they aren't representative of all gay parents. Also, a few studies purport to establish negative characteristics of children raised by gay parents, but they tend to be discounted because they are associated with anti-gay researchers and organizations.

Also, I had a point earlier that is asserted by the ACLU report:
One study found that while few of the children of gay parents identified as gay, a larger minority of children in this group reported being open to or actually having had a same-sex sexual experience.

One of the studies cited by ACLU concludes:
Daughters of lesbians, however, were significantly more likely to report being open to same-sex attractions or relationships. Children of lesbians were significantly more likely to have had a same-sex sexual experience.

Another study says:
No differences were found in the proportion of each group that reported experiencing sexual attraction to someone of the same sex, though the children of lesbians were more likely to act, or consider acting, on those attractions.

Jane said...

Mohamed,
Thank you for taking the time to read what I sent. I see by what sections you have chosen to quote that perhaps you think these kids are more likely to become gay. I believe that the incidence of homosexuality among these kids is not any higher than those of heterosexual parents; rather I think the environment they were raised in makes the ones who are gay more comfortable, open, and willing to accept themselves as such, rather than try to live a lie or hide themselves away. Thanks again for a spirited discussion. It has been ever so interesting.

Mohamed said...

The way I understood those last two studies I cited is that those kids are more likely to have same-sex sexual experiences, even though they are not homosexuals. It means they're open to both I suppose, in a bisexual manner.

Thanks Jane for your input. My initial claims would've stood unchallenged otherwise, and that would've been a shame.

roora said...

mohamed , happy that you checked up the tafseer it is ok.

jane , i will answer your question, from where did we get from koran that it is wrong , sorry ya mohamed , i will write here a lot in your blog.

ok i obtained from a tranlated quran that i have , into english so i will state the verses as they are written ok in order , each one numbered is a seperate verse.
the first 5 verses are from the same sura by order , sorry they are long so be patient with me

1- And (remember ) Lut (Lot), when he said to his people: " Do you commit the worst sin such as none preceding you has committed in the Alamain(mankind and jinn)?
2- "Verily, you practice your lusts on men instead of women. Nay, but you are a people tansgressing beyond bounds (by commiting great sins)."
3- And the answer of his people was only that they said: " Drive them out of your town, these are indeed men who want to be pure (from sins)!"
4- Then We saved him and his family, except his wife, she was one of those who remained behind (in the torment).
5- And We rained down on them a rain (of stones ). Then see what was the end of the Mujrimun (criminals, polytheists and sinners)

And in other sura :

1- They (messengers) said: O Lut (Lot)! Verily, we are the messengers from your Lord! They shall not reach you! So travel with your family in a part of the night and let not any of you look back; but your wife )will remain behind), verily, the pinishment which will afflict her. Indeed, morning is their appointed time. Is not the morning near?"
3- So when our Commandment came, We turned ( the towns of Sodon in Palestine)upside down , and rained on them stones of baked clay in a well- arranged manner one after another;

jane, there are many others but i can give you some other verses that state the punishment that was done for that village because they were like that

1- And We turned (the towns of Sodom in Palestine) upside down and rained down on them stones of baked clay.
2- Surely! In this are signs for those who see (or understand or learn the lessons from the Signs of Allah)


as i said there is more but i think this is enough so as not to take a bidder space in the blog. if you want me to give you the rest ., surely i will

zoss said...

mohamed; slightly off topic, but since you mentioned it, what do you mean by our bodies and lives are not ours in: "Well, fine by me, but God tells me that He doesn't want it because our bodies are not ours, but His, and that we don't own our lives, but He does."?

Mohamed said...

Zoss, I mean that we are God's creation, and He has nafakh feena, and while we have the choice to do with ourselves as we wish, we will be accounted for what we do. So, we are not just accounted for what we do to others, but what we do to ourselves as well. And if we do harm to ourselves, then we are harming God's creation.

Adel said...

seems u stopped posting here,, but i still might to leave couple of comments.
1- regarding something JANE said ( GOD CRUELITY ) cause god created love between same sex and then condemn it. well, god also created the KILLER and the RAPIST and the THIEF, u think we should condemn them no more cause god created them ??

2- Regarding punishment to homosexuals in Islam,, It is true that there is no defined punishment, it is left to the judge to decide and that is called (TA3ZEER , نعزير ) means there is no defined punishment , but it is left to judge.
even some said the punishment should be inspired from what god did to them , i.e. thrown with stones ( as should be done with the married who commits adultery).
and some few sayings ( should be thrown from over the highest building in town ), which is very weakly supported waying.

3- I want to ask a question.
we blong to the animals kingdom, but we keep other animals as pets.
doesnt that give an ipression that we shouldnt act like other animals do and we at least think as HUMANS ?.

zayan_69 said...

Speaking of Gays, or homosexuals better put, I don’t think its genetic. I mean I think it’s a great thing to promote it, in western cultures, because its attached to that individualistic mentality, and freedom of expression and what not, but I mean it is not genetic. It is a kind of disarrangement in the mind. It could be caused or triggered by many things. Being exposed to dolls as a child, or always being around women, being extremely clean, being fond of clothes, shopping, etc… and then one day you start to coin with the idea, and the next thing you know you are coming out of the closet. Its like everyone has a small part of their brain where testosterone and estrogen mix and match. Girls have more estrogen and guys testosterone, but when these factors above start marginalizing the ratio between testosterone and estrogen, increasing the ratio between them, then other parts of your brain comply, and trigger emotions an feelings. Its all in the brain, all in your head basically. If you wanted to be gay you could, you would convince yourself and your brain would go along with it. Its just like being happy ironically. If you want to be happy, you can, you will convince yourself, and your brain will act accordingly, for you are in control of your own brain. Happiness is a perception. Like when you lie sometimes, lie after lie, you could lie so much to the extent that you have convinced yourself you are telling the truth. You are in control of your own life. You want to read more, live healthy and quit smoking, stop bad habits, put an end to world hunger and create world peace, it starts with you. You have the power. And lesbians, oh sweet sexy lesbians. There’s nothing I’d like more than to spend a day with some Swedish lesbians as they feed me grapes. I mean the one thing I hate about lesbians is their overuse of the dil doe. I mean you are a lesbian for a reason, you shouldn’t even own a dill doe if you were really committed to your mentality. You choose no man, so why play around with an artificial part of a man? Its because you can’t live without a man. This is nature and there’s nothing you can do about it. I think in general, western societies and many European countries to be fair tend to overemphasize modernity and interest groups. Anything new or strange they have to engage in. It’s a sickness. And actually the entire world is guilty of this. It’s what makes life worth living at the end, but one must draw limits.

Anonymous said...

Hi Mohamed and Friends,

Very interesting conversation--glad this can happen in an open and respectful way. On the question of what is "normal" sexual behavior, I would suggest you read about the Kinsey Report and his assertion that human sexuality exists on a spectrum and varies by the individual.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kinsey_Reports

Also--I believe new research is showing that "homosexuality" may be a result of hormone levels present in the mother's system during pregnancy--and not necessarily related to genetics.
Playing with dolls and spending time with Mommy has nothing to do with one's sexuality--it is established before birth.

As for "punishment"--I personally believe that every person was born to be who God made them, and no one else. Eventually, the Prophet's (PBUH) message of love will extend to this area as well. inshallah.

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